New Narratives on Mental Health and Wealth
Episode 21 with Elizabeth Afeman
Money is often directly tied to mental well-being and status. Yet, despite growing up in a privileged family, Elizabeth Afeman grappled with depression and suicidal thoughts from a young age.
Now, as an investment associate, Elizabeth shares her journey of overcoming mental health struggles and challenging societal assumptions. Hosts Wes Brown and Dr. Sonya Lutter speak with Elizabeth about the importance of seeing individuals holistically rather than making assumptions based on external factors like wealth or grades.
Tune in to find our how their unconventional career paths in finance encourages us all to removing the "shoulds" from our vocabulary.
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Wes Brown 0:02
Okay, good. I think I say that every single time. All right, okay. Okay, great. Excellent. Yeah, we can run it. I know.
Elizabeth Afeman 0:14
That's a signal for like,
Wes Brown 0:16
Anthony, our producer can take out anything we don't want in there. So it's so that everyone
Elizabeth Afeman 0:24
can make like,
Sonya Lutter 0:26
we were just talking about, wouldn't that be an amazing? Yes, yes. It's only Yeah.
Wes Brown 0:34
That's, that's the next one that will do that in 20 is
Sonya Lutter 0:38
perfect. Oh, no. Oh, that's true. 2025
Yeah, we always think
Elizabeth Afeman 0:51
and you want to see with all the time, he says this, you gotta go to Patreon, you're gonna get active.
Wes Brown 0:59
It's funny, when my side story when my kids were little, they would make this like, just really kind of funny noise. Like, when they were like toddlers, you know, and my cousin would like, record it and like, set it to music. And it was like, this whole like, Song of like, just like, like, you know, like samples of like my kids making this little squealing noise or whatever. So we could do something like that, you know, maybe we just some dance music. Funny. Yeah. That's original. Well, Elizabeth, thanks for for joining us in and, you know, as you're talking about a moment ago, I know you and Sonya know each other, from Texas Tech, I think and, and Sonny has told me a little bit about your story. And you know, I don't I don't want to preface it too much. But my understanding is it kind of weaves together, you know, the relationship between financial means and circumstances and mental health. And, again, maybe up end some misconceptions that we all hold around, you know, if you have enough money, you should be happy and kind of the cycle of shame and guilt and things associated with that. So again, I know that's really broad an ambiguous but you know what I'm talking about? So I'd love to, you know, I just want to kind of push the mic in your direction. And have you kind of tell us a little bit about you know, what kind of your story where you got what brought you to where you are today. And and you know, and just see where it goes from there.
Elizabeth Afeman 2:45
Sure, absolutely. Yeah, I guess we could just hit the high points abridged version like that. I'm so grew up in Texas, in a well off family I to this day. Dr. Luna knows this, but I don't really know exactly. The I guess financial situation of my parents, my family, because it was kind of more ambiguously shared with me, especially growing up. Maybe now that I work in Finance, they've shared a little more with me because I've, well, I'm an adult, I'm out of the house. And I know a whole lot more about it than I used to. And I'm able to kind of give some helpful thoughts about it as well. But you Yeah, I grew up understanding that we were well off is the words that my parents would use or upper middle class. But to some of my friends I grew up in well, in a bigger suburb. And then we moved to a small town, small town, Texas and to some of my friends in small town, Texas, we were what they considered rich. Which, to me Rich was the Kim Kardashians, the Bill Gates, the Jeff Bezos, the more money than you can imagine, kind of rich. But to them growing up we we had two houses, because when we started in the suburbs of DFW we, my dad's job changed. He's a pilot. We moved to small town, Texas, ended up getting a house there. He's always been very strict with his budgeting. So he was able to pay he we didn't have a mortgage by the time we moved, and he paid off that mortgage through the oh eight financial crisis within like seven years or something like that. And so we have those two households, because we had the idea that we were probably going to go back to the Metroplex area at some point. And the idea that there's not a huge number of pilot jobs in small town, Texas He ended up working for a private, really wealthy, like the person that I think of when I think of Reg, somebody who married the heir to some kind of multi million, maybe a billion dollar. It's, you know, wealth. And we never, I never worried about food, never worried about clothes, never worried about, you know, coming home and having to find clean clothes. I looking back, I'm really grateful for the things that I took for granted. I think he's been able to get older, we find some perspective. And we maybe find more and more gratitude, or at least that's the approach that I have tried to have is more and more gratitude with every moment that I realized, every thing that I realized how lucky I was to have, you know, even my parents, you know, I don't realize how I didn't realize how unlucky some other people have have been with their parents, but mine are about to come up on 30 years of marriage, they still love each other, they still like each other, at least most of the time.
Sonya Lutter 6:10
And important clarification.
Elizabeth Afeman 6:14
Yes, yes. And that is just something I didn't realize was as rare as I've come to understand it to be. But right. So not to drone on too terribly much about that, but went to high school ended up being number two in the class, very high achiever very motivated. Looking back, I feel like I kind of lived my life as a resume, even though I didn't think I was and I didn't exactly want to got into TCU, Texas Christian University, paid that with mostly scholarships. And then also my grandparents had set up a five to nine for me. So came out of that with no debt, which is another thing, I didn't realize how very lucky I am to have experienced, but almost dropped out my first semester at TCU, and undergrad. Because I was so panicked about feeling trapped in that same four year experience that I had in high school, which was very, very tough. I think the pressure that I was putting on myself to be perfect, I had assigned my self worth to my GPA in a way. And growing up, the only thing that my peers really said about me, except for the friends that I had outside of class was smart or quiet. So those were the only quiet I didn't really associate with it as much. I mean, I think I was just exhausted all the time, and put my head down and tried to get the grades. And I don't really know where that pressure came from other than myself and maybe the social pressure of like, that's the only thing that I know who I am by. Because my parents, they wanted me to do well, but they never really overly put that pressure. I think I just kind of conflated them saying like, we want you to do your best. With what is my best, I don't know what that 100% is other than 100% or 100%. And the bonus points or, you know, if I thought that my best was the same every day. And it wasn't until later that I realized that your best can fluctuate from day to day. But I guess some of the major events that I would say are defining, at least on the good side, or I studied abroad. In college, I spent a semester in Spain that was one of the best things that I could have done for myself. I checked myself into a mental hospital. That was one of the best decisions I made. And I panic applied is how I describe it while I was at a job that ended up leading me to check myself in the mental hospital to the job that I have now. So taking that chance to get out of a situation and get into something that turned out to be a very, very good environment great place to work that I very much enjoy being at. So I guess those are the highlights.
Sonya Lutter 9:37
Yeah. You packed a lot in there Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Afeman 9:44
Can we do I
Sonya Lutter 9:48
dig into everything was seemingly going quite well and then you just snuck it in there. You checked yourself into a mental hospital. So yeah, what point in life that was and pre post college and? And what that was yes.
Elizabeth Afeman 10:07
Yeah. So I tried to keep myself from going off to many tangents because I'm thinking, Okay, here's this, but wait, this leads to this, we do love
Wes Brown 10:18
so many tangents. So go, whatever whatever direction you want to go. Okay,
Elizabeth Afeman 10:25
perfect. Well, yeah, I want to preface it for anybody who's viewing or listening, I'm going to go into suicidal thoughts, suicidal topics here. So if that's any kind of triggering, please, you know, take take heed, I and I'm going to be very smiley and laughing and joking in this part, because that's how I have approached it. That's how I have coped with it after getting all of the crying out. And so that's, that's just, I don't know, I think that maybe in some ways, the bad gives the good meaning. At least, that's how I've taken it. So looking back on it, I just can't help but smile, because I am here now. And I'm so grateful to be here. And that is like, such a wonderful feeling. And I might tear off a little bit, which I feel like I am now a little bit and that's okay, just let's all just keep going. So I think probably 14 years old was the worst year of my life, thinking, you know, when I reflect on it, I was going through a really rough time socially in school. I don't know what happened. But one of my very best friends kind of turned into my biggest bully, and 14 is a rough time for girls is the general consensus. So I was very much in the camp of, that's never gonna happen, my best friends and I are going to be best friends till we grow old together. And then then it didn't work out like that. So I probably suffered, like, maybe 10 years with undiagnosed mental health, illness situation. I just remember being in grade school, and it was just so hard to get up in the morning. To me, I would see those commercials on TV. The one I remember the most is when they talk about having an elephant sit on your chest when it's talking about depression. But it didn't feel like that for me. For me, it was more like, my bones were filled with lead. Like you didn't feel something was on top of me. It felt like it was in me that the way and I would sleep so much, but I was so tired all the time anyway. And I at one point later in my life would end up getting a like a brain scan to try and diagnose any kind of, because I think there's brainwaves that indicate if you have maybe that can indicate if you have a mental illness or other kind of something going on. And they had basically they basically said it looks like you're never hitting REM when you sleep. And I was like all the time. And sleeping so much. And it was like it was just this limbo that was just like, oh my god, what? What's hap, like? Terrible. And as we all hear me no sleep is such a big part of making your mood, good or bad. Impacting just everything. And you know, looking back on all the stuff that I did, I was in Student Council, I was in the drill team, I was a captain on the drill team. I did Spanish club I did. Girl Scouts, I did like I can't even remember all the things that I was involved in. I was probably either at school or doing homework or extracurriculars. Twice number of hours. I slept at night. And it's just like, how do I do that? Like, no, I could I do that again. Just the high achievement and the burnout. And the there's something to be said I think for like the cars I was putting into the GT cloud gifted and talented classes as a kid. The GT kid burnout. It seems to be a trend. And I'm like, Yeah, we do. But I basically my mom, she she had been through some some mental health crises in her past she had had some experiences like that. So she was kind of always asking me now um, and like, are you okay? Do you want to go to someone for help? Like, all throughout all of that, like I never once questioned if my parents would love me. You know, I'm so thankful for them for their support because I everything you know, on paper, everything was going right Honestly, even off paper it looked like it like everything was going right um And, you know, I couldn't feel I couldn't figure out why I was wrong. Which not but sort of felt like, and especially when I was in high school, which is 2012 to 2016. That it's at the beginning of it, especially it felt still, like the mental health conversation was nowhere. It felt still, especially in small town, Texas, which is, you know, is very religious, it's not, you know, it's very conservative, it's very kind of against more of the ideas of, like, oh, mental health doesn't mean you're crazy, especially at the time, I was very biased against people with mental illness, you know, I'm over here, like, half can have convinced that people are dangerous and crazy if they're depressed. And we have wondering if I'm depressed, and you know what that means about me. And, you know, even knowing that my mom had had and more of my family had had these issues. It's just, it's weird how societal kind of concepts will work what you know, in a way. But I would say maybe like, 2014 2015 is when like the mental health, I got kind of into some online communities that just pointed out different symptoms they had and like diagnoses they had. And then when I made a friend who kind of had had some of these experiences, and, you know, was someone to talk to my age, and the conversation around, it seemed to open up more, maybe my later two years of high school. And that's when I started to think maybe I do have something going on, maybe I should get some help. But I was still very afraid to reach out. And my mom, she would ask me, but she was also she would tell me later, after, you know, years after I'd started getting help, I would have wanted to take you somewhere more in the Metroplex. Because the stuff that we'd heard about some of the mental health practitioners in this small town were not good. Like one of them saying like, something like you're crazy, or you need to pray to God about it, or, you know, things that didn't help in the long run, which of course, for some people praying to God very much can help. But I don't think that it is the end all be all solution for any mental illness, which that was the interpretation that we had gotten from the way that they were conducting their services. So went to TCU. And first semester, couple weeks in, I called my mom crying, and I was like, Mom, I don't know what to do, I want to drop out. And that was like, such a, an unexpected, maybe from the outside, maybe on paper, again, unexpected thing, because like I said, you know, Saluda Torian did all the things under the sun went into TCU is an honor student. And I just felt like, that's, that's a common theme. Anytime I felt bad, it. I always felt trapped. Like I was in a corner and like, yes, there was a way out. But it also ended up being another like dead end, where I was thinking, you know, yes, I could drop out, and that will get me out of this. But if I dropped out, I'll never get a job. I'll never, you know, make any money, I'm gonna end up dying on the streets. And like, that's the spiral that I would get into, even though I know, you know, my parents would not let that happen. I would not never be able to get a job, like, in college isn't even the right thing for everybody. And I acknowledge that. And I was a total believer in that. But for me, I was like, but if I don't do it, I'm not gonna get a job. Everybody else can do it, but not me. I'm gonna just die if this doesn't go this way. So kind of creating my own cage in a way. And then went to the mental services, the TCU campus and went in there I remember and just I just got in front of the first like initial assessment and just broke down crying, and I was like, I just need help. I was in they said, Are you opening medication because they were very timid about that, because I think a lot of people were would give a lot of like pushback. When they asked that question. I was just like, anything that helped me,
which is I think then when we were you know, I realized I was ready to ask for help. Oh, I remember actually, that day, I almost backed out. I almost chickened out because when I had made the appointment the day of and my mom called me that morning, and she all she did was ask she just said hey, are you going to go to that appointment? She was very big about not pushing me into any treatment, just supporting and asking our Are you going to do it? And that is what made me actually get up and go get my butt to the office. And I'm just glad it worked out like that. Just little things that that feels so by chance, but ended up being so impactful. And I ended up getting a medication, trying a couple different ones, a couple different dosages. It's not like a magic thing that you can just pop a pill and have it go away as much as you want it to be. And it was frustrating to like, have to figure out that there's more than one and you have to figure out dosages. And yet, that was like, I was like, I just want you to make me better. And then it's you have to face the terrible reality that you have to make you better. And it's like, oh, no, something like that I live in here. I don't want to clean it up. But yeah, so did that did a little bit of counseling, in college at the at the Mental Health Services didn't do as much as I should have. But got to a place where I could do college, and had some great experiences, you know, and then COVID happened my senior year, my very last semester at TCU. And we went home for spring break. And then we did not step foot on campus again, until maybe graduation maybe like but not that graduation. You know, we had to push it out to another year's graduation where TC was really great for what they did. You know, they said, you know, we want you to be safe, we want you to know that you're welcome back at absolutely any graduation that we hold after this. But it is still a big bummer to have missed out on a lot of that, that year, and and not being able to find a job for a while because every application that I had sent in, I suddenly was either ghosted or they were rescinded, or the company shut down. It all just was very as everyone I'm sure experienced, topsy turvy and worked like three part time jobs at the same time for a while. Retail that was fun with people coming in. And anyway. You know, I'm glad I had the experience because I think doing some kind of like food service or retail kind of gives you perspective and makes sure that you treat those people with kindness. But got a job at an FBO for an airport, which is basically a little private jet hub, where the people with private jets come land their plane refuel, get catering, rental cars. They fly their dogs a whole lot. So I got to a big part of my memory of it is I got to give dogs treats all the time, which is great. But also I was like, five come back. I want to come back. So beloved rich person. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. And that was the job that ended up making me check myself into the mental hospital. I think that COVID had just, of course, done like I said, topsy turvy for everyone. But for me, I maybe it had to do with like not getting out in the sun and all that stuff. I ended up gaining weight and COVID. And I ended up my skin started to I started to get all this acne, you know, when I was in my 20s. And it felt so unfair, like, I'm in my 20s now I shouldn't be getting acne. And it was worse than I ever had in my teens. And so then I was like, Okay, so I'm jobless. And then now fat now I'm ugly. Like, I was just really feeling like I was being, you know, kicked while I was down. But getting that job, which was better paying them other jobs, but it was $15 an hour. And it was enough to get like a little bitty apartment in Dallas, especially at the time where rent was really cheap. And I'm going on over to left field work my shift from 2pm to 10pm every day except for Tuesday and Wednesday, including holidays so that all that already can be kind of a tough situation. And then it just ended up to be such a really toxic environment with the management that I I liked a lot of the coworkers. I even like the work like it. I didn't really mind paying out fuel bills, calling in the orders calling and catering. It wasn't a bad job. It was just not enough money really to live on long term. The benefits, like the health care, I was not going to like, I hadn't turned 26. So I was going to still be on my parents, but when I did, I was going to need a better health care plan than they had thinking about those things. And just, you know, not a lot of upward mobility, because I think it was like 75 people that worked there. And the only way that you really went up was if somebody left. So, you know, didn't didn't work out to be a long term solution. But main thing was, was that the management ended up being kind of contradictory to what they would say. And then it felt like they would start drama between the people who are at the front desk, which are mostly women, so they're just kind of starting drama between the women at the front desk, or, you know, saying, Oh, I heard this rumor about you, you know, calling them up to you up to their office to say, I heard this rumor about you. What's going on here kind of is almost a power play. I was written up once for something, they didn't even really know what they were talking about. I remember they were saying, Oh, and this uniform, and they would like looked up at me for a second. They were like, and then they looked again. And they were like, Oh, you just need to like iron your uniform work, something like that. And actually actually didn't know what that was about. And it was about the fact that I wear sneakers instead of like dress shoes. So I actually knew what I was supposed to be written up about and say it but they, they didn't know. And I was like, if you're gonna write me up, why would you but they told me they weren't writing me up. But they had me sign a paper. And then I was like, but at that point I was already leaving. So I didn't care that much. But still, it just things like that, that. It just it got. Yeah, we also lost a really close family friend, right around the time that I was either applying for this job that I have now or before then. And he he worked with my dad is the pilot. And the aircraft that they flew is based at this FBO that I was working at. And so everybody kind of knew or knew of this guy. And he really ended up being like, like an extended family member, he was a neighbor, he, he just wasn't really a great guy. And so just he passed unexpectedly. And the way they handled that, when I came in, and I just kind of crying all day, it wasn't
very delicate. It was I don't know, it felt like they were doing a lot of performative.
For performative things, and then we just kind of move on to like what they wanted for me, which was unfortunate, but kind of, like, just remembering more things now, because I've put a lot of it behind me. So I don't remember a lot to like, start to dig into it. But when I went and I turned my paperwork in to get we used to go to the mental hospital, I had to work weekends first because they didn't, I had to use my PTO to go and they didn't cover like I didn't have enough days to cover the whole stay. And I needed the money to pay for it because it's expensive. And so I had to also work weekends still. And so I was still working weekends this whole time. And the HR lady had told me like, so technically, since you haven't been here a whole year, we can't guarantee your job when you come back. Like what? Like as if they don't have basically a revolving door of people doing this because it's like people who are college students, people who are new to the workforce who don't know that what they're doing is like maybe a little sketchy at times. You know, like we didn't have lunch breaks, like, like, we just had to kind of like eat on the job. And I'm like, I don't know if this is technically loud, but I'm I'm 23 So yeah, there's just different stuff like that, that just kind of built up and I was just like, You know what? I'm just and that's that's where I think that the trend of like quiet quitting and like whatever what I did it was I don't know if there's a term for it. I think there might be but I remember doing it before the term came out. And I was like, that's what I did. Like I remember calling it rage applying when I was doing because I was just I was like this is just so unfair. And I applied to this new job while I was at work like on my phone. I was like so fed up that day. Don't do that. That's not that's not a good practice. But that's it I would never do that now. For the record love this job. But so yeah, one day I came home. It was a little bit after that family friend had passed away. Something I'm sure happened at work that day. They just sent me off or something And I came home and I started feeling like I felt when I was 14. And that had been one of my biggest fears, up to that date was feeling going back to feeling like I felt when I was 14, which was just that. I never got really past suicidal ideation. I think I didn't even learn that I was suicidal until I was in college. And I was telling that guy that first appointment in the mental health services what I was experiencing, he was like, oh, yeah, that's a suicidal ideation. And I was like, Oh, well, word. But yeah, I I remember thinking a lot when I was 14, of course, I, the experience that I had was in high school, everybody. And in middle middle school. At that point, everybody constantly said stuff like, oh, we have this test today, I want to die like, so it just felt so normal, normalized. To me like to say in that stuff that I felt like everybody was feeling that way. And I was like, Oh, me, too. That must be like a regular experience. And I just remember things like I would just imagine different ways that I would kill myself. I'm not, but I didn't ever feel like I would do it. I just would imagine like, if I would see something like a kitchen knife or something, I would just imagine doing it. And then and then I would oh my god, I romanticized my own funeral a lot. Like, I don't know, I would just picture it and picture people being sad about whatever they had done that day that upset me, or, like, oh, we should have been nicer. That was when I was going through the bullying. And it took a little while to get to realize like, actually, it took losing some classmates, which I wasn't close to. But still, it kind of shocked me out of it a little bit. And just realizing like that's not the result that would like what I'm imagining what I'm romanticizing is not going to be what's the reality is, the reality is is that most of these people are going to find out and move on. And the people that I don't want to hurt are the ones that are going to hurt the most. Which is when we fast forward back to when I was like 23 or 24. I remember be feeling like I felt at 14. But with this added barrier of I instead of I wish I could die it was I wish that I wanted to die. So I felt like under underneath probably I did want to die. But blocking that kind of ruining if you will, that fantasy was especially like my parents. And then this one particular cousin that I'm really close to and my best friend actually from high school who pulled me up from a lot of the depths when I was 14. Oh my gosh, if you meet someone who's still your friend when they knew you when you're 14 hang out. But yeah, so I just remember this barrier being imagining the hurt that it would cause them and being so unwilling to cause them that hurt that it was like upsetting me that I was like I wish they didn't love me this much so that I could just Yeah, so that was that was the point where I said you know what, it's time for a little intervention me and I went online actually just to search up reviews for just psychiatric hospitals. Because I still had the the cultural you know, theory of like I don't want to be a place that's like scary and going to treat me bad like, like, you know, the institution's like, back when we talked in class Dr. looter about the history of psychology and the the like asylums There we go, that's the word I was looking for. So I found a place that had good reviews went to their website, they actually had a chat feature that helped a lot and then it was like 24 hours so it was I think probably 11 At night maybe came home after work. And I said you know, I don't even remember what he said but something like along the lines of like I am going to need some help. went in for an assessment that next like Wednesday that I had off which I think this was maybe like a Monday or Tuesday when they said all right they didn't completely admit me like overnight but they had me in listen call it's a I IPO attend IOP I intensive outpatient program. So I was there basically like a job Seven or eight hours a day with like a lunch break, Monday through Friday, went home, slept at night, came back the next morning. And they had a branch for the IPO IOP IOP. That was like 15 minutes from my parents house. So I said, that's going to be a fantastic place to go. Because it's going to be I'm gonna stay with them to the very big support pillars in my life. And then, you know, 15 minutes like a state come home to them, I didn't want to come home to an empty apartment that was going to, I think, just make me sadder. So the packed, packed, wrap things up, I went to their house still works the weekends, which was like a 45 minute drive. But I was like, this is worth it. And it was, it was it was really, really worth it. So I think that that was the digging into. Okay, can I have a question to get me back
Sonya Lutter 36:04
on track? Yeah, that was really wonderful. And really, thank you for sharing all of that, Elizabeth. I think you're a beautiful example of perseverance and strength, and courage. So I very much appreciate you letting other people hear that as well. One of the things that Wes and I talk a lot about is being authentic and being present in the moment. And I mean, the show was called analog advisor. So kind of removing some of those external assumptions and pressures, and really focusing on what's in front of you. And all of that's so much easier said than done, right? Like, we live in a world where we're constantly comparing ourselves to other people. And we have these images of what's right and what's wrong. And even you use some of those words of I was wrong. It's like you're not wrong at all. It's, it's society that makes us believe these things. And just thinking about some of my experiences working in mental health, and maybe Wes, you can share some of your experiences working in finance, that we make these incorrect assumptions about people based off of what's on paper, like you were a very intelligent person, you are a I'll put it in quotes wealthy person, and everything was seemingly going your way. And so we make assumptions that you must be okay. And how dare you even think these negative things because someone has at worse, right? Like, that's what we do as a society. And we don't understand that people are people. And everyone struggles across all of these different levels. And that's something that I'm really passionate about too, is just taking away those assumptions and listening to people for who they are as people. And I'll put Wes on the spot, if you're willing to talk about how you see that showing up and finance to with just us, people literally come to you to have you judge their finances in a way. Like they want you to look at their financial situation and come up with the plan for that. So I think it would be hard not to make assumptions or judgments based off of who they might be as a person. I know you don't. So I'm curious for you how you have gotten past that and kind of made that all work in your mind.
Wes Brown 38:42
Yeah, I mean, you and I both know, all three of us know that it's never really about the money. Anyways, you know, the the catalyst for us to, you know, for me to meet a new client or to talk with somebody about their finances is usually not a financial thing that has happened, there's some, you know, on the surface, it could be, it could be something financial, right? It could be you know, an inheritance, friends, let's just use that as an example. So someone comes to us because they're going to receive a lump sum of money, and they want to make a good decision with it. And, you know, I think on the surface, most of us would say, you know, if, especially those of us who aren't expecting an inheritance, that, Jeez, you're so lucky. You know, like you, you got something dropped in your lap, and you should be grateful, you must be like, you know, just really grateful for this. And the reality is that that's not often the case. You know, that inheritance comes with all sorts of meaning in values associated with it that far that are far more deeply rooted than the financial will impact which, if which, again, you, in the hands of somebody who has never had money could actually be, like a pretty fleeting thing, you could blow through that pretty quickly, but the emotional aspects of the loss that that is associated with the inheritance itself, right that catalyzed them to receive. Yeah, it's like, so anyways, I say all that to say like, yeah, that was an interesting, that example is a is a real one, though, that I remember sort of experiencing with clients and going like, okay. You know, you should yeah, this is not at all what I thought it would be. Right? Your your feelings about this are so much more complicated than then it seems to, like it should be on the surface, or like they should be on this surface. And I think like most people would judge them to be. So I don't know if I'm answering your question. But But yeah, go ahead. Yeah.
Sonya Lutter 40:58
Yeah, I think the issue that we keep dancing around is how, whenever we use the word should, we're immediately starting to place judgment and make these assumptions about people. And when we remove showed from our dictionary, it really helps kind of place things into a broader picture, and helps remove some of those assumptions that we come to the table with. And I mean, Elizabeth, you gave so many amazing examples in there of how things should have been on paper from a predictive analysis. I love research, like predictively everything should have went great. And the problem is, should have and if we can just remove that should from our vocabulary. I think that's what helps us see the situation beyond the numbers and see people for people and what their background has been and how that frames who they are currently.
Wes Brown 42:12
I make sure Elizabeth is still with us. Elizabeth, you still there.
Sonya Lutter 42:18
I thought you were taking a video. Next day she's
Elizabeth Afeman 42:20
coming back. Oh, no, it was like
Sonya Lutter 42:29
I just kept waiting for the video
Elizabeth Afeman 42:38
oh, I guess? Well, you
Sonya Lutter 42:42
have my story there. I think the problem in our society is that we place the word word should into our vocabulary, like it's going to be useless word because people are unique and their situations are unique. And when you start using should we start making assumptions of who you are as a person that's based off of nothing beyond some sort of external societal expectation that doesn't take into account your personal experiences and how you interpreted situations and I think that's kind of the point I was trying to get around to is how can we live more authentically and see people for the people that they are regardless of what they look like on paper?
Elizabeth Afeman 43:42
Yeah, I think one of the most powerful things for me that I learned in the mental hospital was the power of and statements especially instead of but but I think we could also place should is in the same categories but there are you know, I'm thinking I grew up in a very lucky very blessed lifestyle and
Sonya Lutter 44:11
this tie into you said you applied for your current job during this I'm kind of a little bit curious now about the connection between growing up the way that you did and then working in the private jet industry and seeing all sorts of different ways of managing your money there. And now you work in finance
Elizabeth Afeman 44:40
I'll never forget that one guy that always paid his fuel bill and cash just 1000s of dollars he just was carrying around in cash. We have to go get safe out now. Yeah, I Hi. Yeah. Aviation, you know in the fan Like just kind of ended up there, just word of mouth, because it's a pretty small community. I honestly was just so desperate at the time that I Googled jobs for recent college grads. And I found this job popped up, one of the first ones hit Apply. And just one of those moments that I just, I look back on and I'm like, wow, I just am so lucky that I that one tiny chance that one tiny thing could have changed the whole trajectory of my life. If I just hadn't clicked a play on that one. Or if I had Googled something slightly different, or if I had decided to try to stick it out, or any number of variables. So I basically said, I am desperate to get out of this job. This sounds like something I can do. I go, Oh, my gosh, you could ask me five years ago, would I ever be in finance? And I've been like, Oh, no way, like my undergrad is a writing degree. Like with the pen. Sometimes people down here in Texas State, I'll say writing degree and they'll say writing, like writing. Yeah, so I'll try to do so expected to go into it. expecting to go into creative writing, still, one day, we'd love to write some books, maybe after I've done the Masters, and then expect to go maybe into editing. Now, of course, feel kind of lucky that I didn't do that, even though I loved the whole idea behind it because of just the AI movement and taking those jobs away. But so basically, by chance, is how I got here. Couple
Wes Brown 46:46
questions or comments, comments and questions, I've been kind of feverishly taking notes. You know, it's not surprising to me. So my, the bulk of my undergrad was in music. And I finished with a business degree but of over kind of a very circuitous path. And when I went to work for Morgan Stanley, in 2007. So that's how I made my entry into this world. I just remember applying I had a little bit further along in life. And you I had a two year old and a newborn. And I remember applying and just being like I am not the penny loafer wearing, you know, jacket and tie sort of guy that's going to work at Morgan Stanley, there's no way and then I got the first interview and got through it guy really liked me. And you know, we hit it off. And then second interview. And then it was a third interview. I don't know if you know that. I think it's probably similar to a lot of firms, but there's like branches, and then complexes and then like territory and regional offices. And so I had to keep going to like each successive manager, I think I got to like interview five or six. And I just remember thinking like, someday they're like, any moment now they're gonna figure out that I'm not the guy they think I am. You know, yeah, do 100% And, and I got me, I got the job. And that's what put me on this path. And it's really similar to you. It was like, uh, you know, I just hadn't, I didn't know what I was gonna do. I, you know, I had kind of done a mix of things. And I was 27 at the time. And so I just was like, oh, apply for this job. I didn't have any licenses. So I went behind the scenes and went and got sponsored by a broker dealer, so I could get my pay for my licenses on my own. So that then I could say, I was licensed. By the time they asked me it was after I'd already applied. But anyways, so it just one of those chance. So like you kind of just a chance, like, I don't know, I'll try this. And here we are, you know, 16 years later. The second thing that sort of jumped out at me was I'm not surprised that I'm not at all surprised that with your interest in communications in writing that this is kind of the area that the profession that you find yourself in, because I actually think that, aside from the technical know how the, you know, the technical planning stuff, and in under a broad understanding of the market communication is actually probably the most important skill that we have in personal finance. Someone could argue with me on that, but it's certainly top three, I think so if you can communicate well, right, well distill topics down to you know, sort of deliver them in a digestible way. It's a, it's like a superpower. So I'm not surprised if it was based on your background. I want to though if you guys would indulge me for a minute to come back to the wood to the word should. So just kind of the, this is a this is a through line and your story that It, you know, kind of is jumping out to me and I just have some questions about it if you're okay with that for maybe a few more minutes. So, you know, you well noted that you talked about, you felt like your self worth was tied to your GPA. And it's, you know, that's probably analogous to how all of us feel about our net worth as adults, right? Like, you know, that what's on the paper. So like your grade could be analogous to like, your net worth as an adult, you know, how you're doing how you measure success. I'm curious, like, you know, where did you Where do you feel like that came from? It sounds like your parents are pretty loving. It sounds like, I don't know, do you feel like there was an overemphasis on outcomes versus effort in terms of feedback that you got? Just curious about that?
Elizabeth Afeman 50:57
Yeah, well, one of the things was my peers, they had only ever perceived me as just smart or quiet. And those those were just so the only thing I had, I felt like I had as a kid, and in elementary school, especially, and then in high school, was being the smart one. But I think also a little bit tying into when you're talking about effort versus outcome. I think the maybe lack of just realizing what I was going through as far as like, the depression and not having a lot of motivation, which feels like it felt like I didn't have motivation, even though I very clearly had enough motivation to achieve at a high level. Which is part of the reason why I went undiagnosed for so long, I believe, because I achieved at a very high level and so they were you know, doctors that looked at me and said, Oh, there's no way that you have like depression or anxiety because look at what you're doing in school. But I think it was the fact that like some type some days, it felt like the 100% took so much effort. And other days it didn't you know, I'm very lucky where school came easy to me a lot of days. But, but going back to the idea that I brought up earlier of not understanding that my best or my 100% was fluctuate like it was variable day to day. I understood my best as 100% all the time. And I didn't when I didn't make it 100 I even when I felt like I did my best. I kind of you know, I'll use this word again but kind of gaslit myself into feeling like I didn't do my best you know, I lived in this gray area of I don't know what my best is. So I have to do the maximum 100% of the time and I think that kind of just went into a circle that became very toxic to me.
Wes Brown 53:25
Elizabeth we might be losing you again. Can you still hear us? Lost your voice. Okay, we lost your video for some reason. That's okay. That's fine. For is analog as we try to be if we rely on technology quite a bit but if you can still hear us that's great. That's totally fine.
Elizabeth Afeman 53:57
Yes, I can still hear you.
Sonya Lutter 53:58
Maybe I can and I had my mic on mute too. I was just going solo. I
Elizabeth Afeman 54:07
was wondering I was like I really could not hear
Wes Brown 54:20
related to that Elizabeth and I think I'm sorry for where we got interrupted there with the technological issues
Sonya Lutter 54:29
and I appreciate you hold on. She might be frozen again
Elizabeth Afeman 54:36
my frozen, I can still
Sonya Lutter 54:38
hear you your camera because your videos frozen and maybe that will free up some bandwidth.
Wes Brown 54:49
Okay, your audio is a little off but I think I think Riverside compensates for that. So if you can hear us I think I think you're good Okay, perfect. I agree. Yes. Total kind of tangential question. I'm Sonya, I'm going off script here. So bear with me for a second.
Sonya Lutter 55:14
It wouldn't be an interview without going off.
Wes Brown 55:19
Do you have any siblings? Okay. Do you do not feel like it because again, just looking for the for the root of where some of the shoulds are coming from for you, you know, that you should perform at a certain level because of because somebody else did. You know, so if not siblings, do you feel like your parents success and the perception that you were, quote, Rich? Is that do you feel like part of it's rooted there?
Elizabeth Afeman 55:54
No. Not really. I mean, and I never thought of us. You know, even to this day, I don't really think of us as rich. Everything was just very, like I never even to this day honestly have never tied self worth to net worth. I think my parents were really good at keeping those two separate very much into the money vigilance, money script, which is referencing Of course, something that not everybody might not be familiar with. But money is more of a tool, absolutely not like a status symbol. Or I don't know, a I guess just that status symbols the word I was looking for, but it just, it's a way to live, continue to live and it's important to save so that you can continue to live in retirement.
Wes Brown 56:57
Okay. And then this is again, more of a curiosity of my own and so indulge me here for a second so you were 14 in 2012 Right. Do I have my data right there?
Sonya Lutter 57:14
Ish Yeah. 2000 Okay.
Elizabeth Afeman 57:20
Yeah 11 2012
Wes Brown 57:22
Just bear with me here for a second but I'm just curious about the the comparative element of you know where I should might come from right. Were you on Instagram were you on social media at all at that age 14 1516.
Elizabeth Afeman 57:44
Trying to remember I think I was on maybe I didn't really have a lot of social media until I got a little bit older than that. Again, my parents they they kind of were just like they're a little bit like against techno and that not technology in general but the they've been they've always been kind of like not really into social media
Wes Brown 58:08
and not really into good really like your parents
Elizabeth Afeman 58:11
like keeping up with the Joneses
Wes Brown 58:14
you're sort of like speaking my language here so yeah, keep keep going
Elizabeth Afeman 58:24
the you know, it never never really had anything like a maybe a couple of like, sort of luxury things but never never had anything like that they would have the opinion that's like a handbag for like 1000s of dollars that just is like ridiculous. And they will honestly they're against social media because they're like they're tracking you which they are but so is everything else but I just never got into it too much. They were very careful and vigilant again about like, my internet usage online usage like they were not which is very important. They were not overbearing, like they allowed me my privacy. But they they also they trusted me and I trusted them because of that because they respected me as a person even though I was their child. And because they allowed me that privacy. So and also I feel like my generation are quote unquote generation because I'm in the gray area between millennial and Gen Z. I feel like I got a lot of messages as a kid growing up about Stranger Danger online stranger danger, safety Internet safety that I just trusted them so much that I would have gone to them with any of that and I trusted them whenever they their opinions about social media. Were more negative. So I just like I never had a MySpace which a lot of kids my age had a MySpace even though they were too young for what the website said, You should be to have a MySpace. I didn't get Twitter till maybe I was a junior in high school, because my friends were finally like, get on Twitter and I was like, it'd be fine. Eventually. Instagram, I also didn't have Oh, that's right, I remember my first Instagram post was 2015. So it wasn't till I was a junior in high school,
Sonya Lutter 1:00:26
I
Elizabeth Afeman 1:00:30
I think I had a Tumblr, which was anonymous, because I was like, I'm just sitting here reblogging things about being sad. I don't want anyone to know about it. So I didn't really talk to anybody on there. That was the website, that was where I went. And I actually found out more about like mental health symptoms and realize a little bit more about what it's a fun
Sonya Lutter 1:00:54
trail to try to track down the origin of shoulds. And thought processes. I think what's interesting here is how it keeps, we keep pointing towards systems thinking. And I could talk for hours about systemic thinking, and how we're all part of a system. And when we take something away, it starts creating anxiety, or stress and other parts of the system. And having also been a female, at one point, age 14, that's a really hard time because your bodies are changing at different paces than men to but for women, it's a lot more obvious. And I think when you can take away some of that and focus on the intellect, that creates an outlet that is very useful, and it serves a very effective purpose to divert from other elements of your life that you don't want to focus on. And then when that area of your life the intellect is a struggle for you, it starts bringing up these other areas of your life that maybe you're feeling insecure about. And, and why is it that we have these reactions to these tiny changes in this tiny changes in the system? Because we're human, and we all do it. And if, if I'm in an argument with my partner, I'm going to act differently to my children. And it's not really even something I can prepare myself for. But it's this systemic reaction, like a gear shaft to where if I go around changing a little piece, or somebody else comes in and says, I'm gonna put a stick up, did you hear that North Midwest thing, I'm gonna go stick a stick in that gear, it's gonna cause the other pieces to start moving. And maybe we can't even find who put the stick into one of the gears that caused all of these other chain reactions to happen. Besides that they happened and really just thinking about, that's the beauty of systems thinking doesn't matter why the things are happening? Maybe not. But taking the showed out of it is understanding and my mind systemic thinking that we can't predict shoulds or we can't fix the could haves should haves, because there are so many different elements at play that you can't possibly control all of those pieces yourself, and recognizing the vast impact that anyone minor ship just like applying for a new job and how that sets you on a different trajectory for your entire life because it causes a chain reaction in these other parts of our system. I mean, we can continue chasing the should train, but I don't think you're ever gonna find the answer. Yeah,
Wes Brown 1:04:14
no, I think you're 100%. Right. You're completely right. I think the I mean, the gearshift analogies. A good one. You know, I think we use the tapestry one. In our world, sometimes we've talked about a friendship playing tug on one thread over here and a bunches up somewhere else, you know, that type of thing. So I think that applies as well. I think the thing I was just I was trying to understand a little bit more was just environmentally, circumstantially, what were the things that were contributing, you know, were there if it wasn't perceived pressure or expectation from home? Was it a broader environmental element or factor? So, you know, Instagram started in 2010. So it was a pretty poor Popular in new thing right around the time Elizabeth was in high school. So, you know, that would be something that's now, here we are 10 years removed from that. And you know, and it's clearly linked to mental health issues. Right. And so that's where I'm, you know, just thinking about thinking about kind of the Cohen coincidence of those things. But, yeah, yeah, I think you're right. It's hard to nail it down. I was just more curious. I think, Elizabeth, for you, if there were just things that you, you know, as you thought about, you know, hey, how do I get how did I get here? Why did I, why do I feel this way? And you've processed through a lot of that, if any of those things were things that came to mind?
Sonya Lutter 1:05:50
Ya know, and
Elizabeth Afeman 1:05:51
those are great questions. Great questions. I guess somewhere along the line, I stopped really caring that much about the why behind the show.
Wes Brown 1:06:03
That's a good place to get from it. It's just, ya know, I
Elizabeth Afeman 1:06:07
just, it's like, well, it happened. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I know a lot of it is genetic. So that's one of the things and then a lot of it does stem from that one really good friendship that turned into one of the biggest bullies I had. But those are the only things that I've really been able to nail down, quote, unquote. And the rest of it, I will even that part of it. I've honestly just kind of moved on and approach life very much looking forward with how can I experience positivity after I've just, you know, be miserable? Focus?
Wes Brown 1:06:53
Awesome. Yeah, absolutely. So you've so you've kind of sounds like you've come through quite a quite a difficult period. And but you're, you're on a really, what sounds like a steep upward trajectory. And I'm curious, you know, what are the things that that you're studying? What are the things what books are you reading? Right now that have you intrigued and excited?
Elizabeth Afeman 1:07:27
Yeah, well, I mean, definitely upward trajectory, like the marginally ups and downs, factory. I, oh, my gosh, like the markets. I continue with therapy. Just, I, one of the things that the mental hospital had me do, before I left was set up a therapist outside of them and set up a psychiatrist outside of them. So I went from, you know, multiple sessions to like, once a week to once every two weeks to now I just once a month, see a therapist, just maintenance. And honestly, you know, I feel like I've made like a good connection with a therapist, and I like to come up and and be like, Oh, my gosh, guess what happened to me last month. And it's always just nice to have a sounding board that's not connected to your life to just bounce thoughts and, and process against. So that's, that's one of the things that I definitely want to wait you know, promote therapy.
Sonya Lutter 1:08:39
Well, we also really, like books are curious what you've been reading.
Elizabeth Afeman 1:08:45
Oh, good. Yes. So that's gonna get to looks great. Just mentioned just when you mentioned upward trajectory, I always I always like to kind of, I know that I put forth a very, like, positive and upbeat forward because that's, you know, an effort that I make in my life, but definitely still have down moments definitely still have rough spots. Definitely important to remember that, you know, healing and, and improving is not just an upward path. Definitely, you can go backwards, you can go downwards. But just every time I go backwards or downwards, it's not to the point that I used to, which is nice. You know, if you slipped down the mountain a little bit, you're not all the way back at the bottom can keep going. But yeah, books, actually is one that you recommended Dr. Leader, I really liked. The sapiens. That was a such an interesting one to start because I find it just absolutely fascinating the idea of how we evolved and just how genetics play and everything and nature versus nurture and all this. I almost majored in biology in college and undergrad and Uh, but I didn't ever want to be a doctor. So I ended up doing the other passion that I had, which was writing, because I didn't see the point in taking all the pre med weed out classes when I knew I didn't want to be a doctor.
Sonya Lutter 1:10:14
So let's be totally clear. I didn't recommend Sapiens, I said, I was reading sapiens. Wes and I have talked about this too, because if I recommend and I feel responsible for your massive shift in thinking about humans and humankind, it is a very fascinating book, and one that I thoroughly enjoyed. So I'm glad you read it. I didn't follow up with the other folks in class to see if they read this one.
Elizabeth Afeman 1:10:45
Yeah. Well, I'm reading it right now. But
Sonya Lutter 1:10:47
cool. Well, this has been really, but
Elizabeth Afeman 1:10:50
yeah, no, I'm sorry. Not that you recommended, but that you brought up.
Sonya Lutter 1:10:54
We lost you on that one.
Elizabeth Afeman 1:11:00
Oh, I said, sorry. You recommended that you brought
Sonya Lutter 1:11:02
up? No worries. If you liked it, say that. I
Wes Brown 1:11:09
didn't like it.
Elizabeth Afeman 1:11:13
I did. I did. So so we can say, well, this
Sonya Lutter 1:11:16
is a very enjoyable conversation. Elizabeth, thank you for staying. We're recording this kind of late and you stayed late at work. So thank you for doing that. And look forward to continuing the conversation in general life.
Elizabeth Afeman 1:11:40
Oh, there it is. Think it'll let me come back on to things. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Wes Brown 1:11:48
Yeah. Thanks, Elizabeth. It's really good to meet you.
Elizabeth Afeman 1:11:55
Yeah, great to meet you, too. Thanks for having me is great. And I mean, longtime thoughts that I've had were just as far as sharing this, you know, I if I can even help one person by sharing my story, then that's worth it. Stick to me. Have a good night and take for one. Yeah, well, thank you. You do. Okay.
Sonya Lutter 1:12:26
You're still there right now.