Embark on a Journey of Financial Wisdom in 2024 with Analog Advisor
As we step into a new year, what better way to kickstart your journey than with insights from the dynamic duo of Analog Advisor? Join hosts Wes Brown and Sonya Lutter in their introduction episode as they share their unique paths into financial planning, emphasizing the power of relationships over money.
Sonya, a trailblazer in financial therapy with a background in speech pathology and marriage counseling, and Wes, weaving the complexities of financial planning through his musical journey, bring a fresh perspective to the world of finance.
In this episode, they discuss the importance of human connection, the heart of financial advising, and the books that have shaped their paths. Plus, get a sneak peek into the exciting interviews lined up for 2024, promising a year of phenomenal conversations that will elevate your understanding of finance and intentional living.
Subscribe now and start your year with the wisdom, inspiration, and fun that Analog Advisor promises to deliver. Let's make 2024 a year of financial empowerment and meaningful connections!
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Wes Brown 0:00
Sonya, thank you for being here. So I'm really, really excited about you joining the podcast, I think this is going to be an inflection point, if you will, for the analog advisor, so thank you,
Sonya Lutter 0:13
I couldn't be more excited. And the interviews that we already have set up are just going to be phenomenal. And it really is going to be a fun 2024. Yeah,
Wes Brown 0:24
I don't I don't really know. I've been struggling kind of trying my hand at this now for, I don't know, a year and a half, maybe a year. I'm not really sure exactly. But you somehow lined up more interviews in like the last two weeks than I did. And then entire timeframe. It's impressive. I guess it pays to be connected
Sonya Lutter 0:45
dies. Yeah, maybe we'll get there in the conversation today.
Wes Brown 0:48
I hope so. I hope so. To that end, you're on the podcast here. I think back in February, lots of downloads, by the way, that that might be one of the most downloaded episodes I've had, does it count if I'm
Sonya Lutter 1:03
the one downloading it?
Wes Brown 1:07
To tell anybody. But I think that counts, I still think it counts. But you know, it's been, I don't know, eight or nine months anyways, since you were on. So if you wouldn't mind, just kind of tell people about yourself. And we'll kind of work our way to how we got here today. But I'd love for you to go back and recap some of what we talked about before. Okay,
Sonya Lutter 1:29
well, I'll recap who I am anyway. And then if we get to the content of the podcast, we can do that too. Perfect. So I am generally considered an academic. I work at Texas Tech University, I teach financial health and wellness. And then I do consulting. But how I got into academia was completely by accident. And even this area was completely by accident. I went to college thinking I was going to be a speech pathologist saying this reminds me that I still get a hard time from saying this on that episode of analog advisor. But I will say it again, that I thought it was going to be the speech pathologist, which as it turns out, involves a lot of hard sciences, biology, chemistry, anatomy and physiology. And I needed to opt out of that pretty soon or be kicked out. And people say you're not good at science, all because of that episode. So that's an unfortunate outcome of that. And as it so happens in the same hallway that I was taking these courses in speech pathology, this was a while ago. So there were a paper paper bulletin boards of Do you enjoy working with people and like numbers, I said, Hey, that is I'm not very good at science, but I am good at numbers. And I found my way into personal financial planning. And it was eye opening, because that was not a profession I had ever heard about. And it really was about the human connection. It was in a College of human sciences. So we were taking a lot of courses in helping relationships kind of introduction to therapy, and other types of things like that. And so I was getting those counseling skills. But then I got close to graduation and realized I was terrified of working with couples. And what happened if they started arguing in front of me, what was I going to do. And this led me into marriage and family therapy, which as it so happens was in the same hallway as these other two professions. So they definitely are related, but nobody had really connected them. I don't think before me at that point in time. And so I got into that. And I was studying with therapists who mostly came from psychology or family studies backgrounds. And when their clients were coming in, and the clients brought up anything financially oriented, they would change the conversation or get it redirected towards communication skills or other types of real, more relational types of conversations. Meanwhile, the people I just graduated with were working in their financial planning firms, or firms of somebody else. And one of the students, my peers, went so far as to say that a couple did start crying in their office, and he literally shut down the meeting and rescheduled it for a different point in time. And this was really enlightening for me to recognize that we've got these two professions where people are coming to them with similar issues. And so they need to be prepared for whether it was a financially oriented conversation or a relationship oriented question and that kind started the journey into creating the financial Therapy Association, eventually financial therapy certificate program at my prior University, and ultimately evolving that over the last 20 years into financial health and wellness. So taking it beyond more treatment oriented or therapy type language and more into how can we boost wellbeing and encourage those conversations in a more productive and healthy and positive way.
Wes Brown 5:32
This was around what year? Yeah, I
Sonya Lutter 5:34
feel like we're calculating my age here is easier. So I graduated with my undergrad in 2003. And then I was in my master's program from 2005 to 2000. Oh, no, my master's program 2003 to 2005. That
Wes Brown 5:58
was the Master's in family therapy. So you got your CFP? No three? No, no masters?
Sonya Lutter 6:05
No, I got my undergrad and oh three, undergrad? No three. So way too scared to take the CFP exam until much later. In 2010, I think Oh, really?
Wes Brown 6:15
Okay. So you really kind of you really kind of left that behind? A little bit.
Sonya Lutter 6:19
Yeah. So I practiced as a therapist for a while. And it was therapy across the board. So it wasn't just financial therapy, it was parent working with parents and child behavioral issues, working with sexual identity issues. So I'm gonna miss the whole gamut of issues. I even worked in a juvenile justice center, which was, that's actually my last experience. And I'm out. That was really sad, because it was 12 to 14 year olds, mostly boys, upwards to 1717, they go into the adult system. And they were in jail for largely systemic issues. And once they got to a certain point of their I don't know symptoms, I guess, they that families were invited to come in and participate in the therapy with us. And nine times out of 10, the family members didn't show up. And this was towards the end. And so they get released a month or two after that. And then they go right back to that same home that they were in where the families weren't showing up. And so it was really discouraging just to think about the larger systemic issues at play, and what can we do to kind of rectify some of those issues. And
Wes Brown 7:52
I did it, honestly, because I you know, I think about like the site, that cycle you're describing, like it just kind of they never get out of it. I must have been really hard. It was
Sonya Lutter 8:00
really hard. And one of the things that saved me was supervision. That's something that we do. In therapy very frequently, on a weekly basis, you're talking with a person or a group of people about their about the difficult cases that you're having. And that's a lifesaver. And this is something I think we need as financial planners is to have that ongoing peer support, supervision, support, etc. This is an interview about you to Wes, you're going into host mode.
Wes Brown 8:31
Okay. Yes. And I will do that. I have another I have another question. So what brought you back to money. Also,
Sonya Lutter 8:39
while being a therapist, I was teaching adjunct night College, within several different PFP courses, personal financial planning courses, Introduction to financial planning, I think I was doing retirement planning. And so I was still exposed to the profession in that way. And I was really liking it. And I was bringing in some of these stories about therapy, and realizing how much the students liked those stories. And so I found my way, and this is how I ended up going down to Texas for the PhD in personal financial planning. And when I went down there, I went with the intent that my goal was to merge these two fields together. A PhD is all about the research. And so really, I was in charge of selecting the research path that I wanted to go on. And I looked at money arguments between partners, and how that was predictive of both relationship satisfaction and divorce is not the number one predictor of divorce. It is the number one predictor of relationship satisfaction. I love talking about this. So quick diversion. Yeah, please. The research shows that it's not how much more a couple argues about money than what they did at the beginning of the relationship. The number one one predictor of relationship satisfaction is how much that couple argued about money at the beginning of their relationship. So not an increase in arguments or not even how much they're arguing right now. But how much you and your wife argued about money, when you were very first together, is more predictive of today's relationship satisfaction than anything else
Wes Brown 10:23
is that because of the sort of formative impact, or the formative impact that arguing around money had on kind of that relationship, the foundation of that relationship is that, like, it alters it in a way that it can't recover from longer term.
Sonya Lutter 10:37
That's an interesting theory to go with. I don't know that we know why my theory has always been, because those arguments are about our inner core about our core values. And if we're not aligned on those core values early in that relationship, it just compounds over time and becomes more and more of an issue, which is different than arguing about sex or arguing about children or in laws, or friends or alcohol use, or any of those things. Because those are more preference oriented. And the money represents who we are at the core, because that's how we we use those resources in a way that reflects our core values, whether or not we realize it or not, that is what we're doing. It's a basic necessity of life. And therefore, we are very protective of how we use that money and how we converse about that money. Okay,
Wes Brown 11:36
so that's the biggest part. And we're going we're going down a rabbit hole here for a second. But I'm just curious, because I don't I don't know this stuff. Is it? So that's the biggest predictor of dissatisfaction? Right, in a marriage, I guess, is that is it safe to assume, given that you started the financial Therapy Association, that financial therapy specifically can correct that in a relationship?
Sonya Lutter 12:03
If the couple's willing, okay. I think people sometimes go into therapy, financial or otherwise, that it's going to fix everything.
Wes Brown 12:11
I mean, is that maybe face differently? Is that what financial therapy is geared towards? Yes. Partially?
Sonya Lutter 12:17
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. relationships in general. So not just intimate relationships, but also energy intergenerational relationships, or friend relationships. That's pretty cool.
Wes Brown 12:31
Yeah. So now, you know, you're where you are today. 2010. Got your CFP, and then you started the financial Therapy Association. So was there a broader? And again, we probably talked about this back in the beginning of the year, earlier in the year. But was there a broader kind of awareness developing? You know, you're, you're saying you, you recognize these things when you're going through school and kind of these adjacent fields or areas of study, but they didn't, neither one of them really was aware of the other one, or if their need for the other? And then, you know, 10 years later ish, you know, here you are kind of merging the two was there. Do you? Did you were you alone? Were of this? Or did you think there's kind of a or did you see that there was a shift taking place more broadly,
Sonya Lutter 13:18
I hope we get to this and every single episode and 2024, that we're never alone, that our ideas are never unique. There's always somebody out there who has been thinking about something similar. Yeah, that's interesting. So as part of my master's program, I had to interview somebody who was doing what I wanted to do. And most people were going to the hospitals and interviewing the therapists who were on site at the hospital or a clergy type arrangement. And I was like, I don't even know who I'm supposed to interview because I want to do something that is different and bringing in this financial element. And lo and behold, I found Ted Clontz there in Tennessee, and cold called him and said, Hey, I need to interview someone for this class project. I know you don't know me, but But would you be willing to engage in a conversation? Because I think you're doing something that I want to do. And we had, I don't know, how long have the conversation, and we have developed a relationship over the last. I guess it's been 20 years now. And he, in my mind, was the founder of all things financial therapy, if I were to say it, but I don't know that he would even say that because of course, you got ideas from other places, too. But it was a group of people who came together in 2008. To decide do we want to move forward with the financial something financial therapy oriented? So I would say it's really that core group have 20 that met in 2008? That is to credit for everything that's developed since then.
Wes Brown 15:07
Has it grown much? Yeah, I
Sonya Lutter 15:10
would say yeah, it's grown quite a bit since then. It's still a very small organization. And I don't know that a lot of people are necessarily familiar with it unless you're in the in. And that's kind of a problem. Just like the CFP Board for instances spent so much money on marketing, what is a financial planner? I think, make compound that by 1004. What is a financial therapist? Whenever people hear about it, they're certainly excited. And they can see the value in it. But it's not an everyday term or a concept to think about.
Wes Brown 15:47
But are there now are there now degree programs or just still certificate programs,
Sonya Lutter 15:51
certificate programs? Yep. And there's a few programs that you can specialize, you can get a master's degree with a specialty in financial behavior, or health and wellness or something like that.
Wes Brown 16:04
And so you're no longer you're teaching at Kansas State. Right, I was this particular area of study course of study, but you're no longer doing that anymore. And you're at Texas Tech, and how are you know, coming full circle? You know, how are you? I guess, teaching this to the next generation of financial planners, or how is this integrated into the course of study or the education for the next generation of planners?
Sonya Lutter 16:34
Yeah, several different ways. So we go through the CFP Board, psychology, financial planning, competency domain, and they have a fairly structured list of things that financial CFP professionals are expected to know which includes communication basics, but also risk tolerance more generally. So beyond financial risk tolerance, what how is this related to everyday risk tolerance, and risk taking, and also new areas within that that financial planners have never had to demonstrate competency and include grief, and transparency and manipulation, and loss more generally beyond grief. So there are some new areas couple conflict also within that. So we go through those topic areas, and then we dig into the research behind the some of those so that we can be better consumers of research. This is really important to me, as part of my doctoral dissertation and the big research project. Like I said, I was interested in money arguments, and I would see these headlines money's the number one cause of divorce. So I would write to these people and ask, Can you help me understand where you got this information from? I would love to cite it and learn from it. And they said, Oh, yeah, I heard about that from such and such blog or such and such popular magazine. And it made me realize that we're not basing our best practices off of any sort of real empirical data, which means it may or may not work. It's just a personal opinion at that point. So teaching students the value of research is something that I'm really passionate about. And then finally, there's an interdisciplinary studies course, where we bring in information from other fields to learn from, how is nutrition impacting a person's well being and how does this influence their financial well being? social relationships, there's so much information on social wellbeing and how this is influencing other elements of a person's life, including financially. So we dig into some of that and think about, well, how would we incorporate this into the financial planning environment?
Wes Brown 19:00
So that's part of the core curriculum for an undergraduate financial planning degree.
Sonya Lutter 19:06
No, they could. This is a graduate level. So ideally, somebody who's already got their undergrad degree.
Wes Brown 19:14
Got it, got it. Got it, because I'm thinking cheese. There's, I don't know, however many existing CFPs that have no idea about all of that stuff. I know. You pick it up sort of here or there. As you're talking about grief. I was thinking about me Florian is book, you know, and I remember when I think when I first started, I think it was at a firm I was at years ago and I started had a client whose husband had passed away. And I remember getting sort of pulling out Amy's book and kind of looking for just some insight on how to respond appropriately. Within awareness that we do it the wrong way, usually, by default, and nobody had ever I mean, there were excellent Have other CFPs at the firm that never heard of that such that thing there, they didn't know there was any such thing at that regard. So, yes,
Sonya Lutter 20:09
I would say that's the majority of financial planners today still, that even though the psychology of financial planning is a required competency domain for CFP professionals, unless they graduated from a degree program within the last two years, they've had zero training, and now all of a sudden, you're gonna know these things. Yeah. It's pretty wild. That's
Wes Brown 20:34
crazy. She's so many, so many thoughts about that. And the implications of that consequences. So okay, so So, and again, I'm gonna fast forward to the end. So because I guess the end is you being right here. So, before this, you've been doing? Rewind. And, and then doing some consulting, some one on one therapy through enlight.
Sonya Lutter 21:07
Yep. I'm also research for big firms to just to help understand, how is psychology of financial planning showing up? Is
Wes Brown 21:16
that interest from big companies sincere?
Sonya Lutter 21:20
It's a fantastic question. And I do believe it's very sincere for the people that I am working with directly. Okay. And then beyond that, of course, we can take any piece of information, any headline, and spin it for profits. So I fully expect that could and probably will happen, but I honestly believe that the people that I'm working with, they're super fascinated with it. And even the people that they work with, they don't necessarily, they didn't really see the value in it, until they start reading some of those stuff. And they're like, oh, yeah, now I see it. So I think we're getting there. profession. But yeah, I'm
Wes Brown 22:05
a skeptic of big companies. So it's good to hear that there's sincerity there. So I guess to tie it in with analog advisor. You know, you and I have been talking, you know, on and off since February, I guess what brought you here? What what are your interests with the analog advisor? What are the conversations? I mean, I know the answer to this, but I'd love for you to tell everybody else. Yeah,
Sonya Lutter 22:28
I love the idea of bringing stories into people's homes where they are that show that you can live authentically in a way that promotes your health and well being and you can use your financial resources to be uniquely you and not have to feel judged, we're always going to feel judged, because it's part of human nature. But having these conversations with everyday people to financial advisors, we have set up people in very high power positions, and how do they bring Authenticity into their life. And that's one of the things that attracted me to you, during that first interview is that you are just very real. And I believe this was that very first conversation conversation, the podcast that we recorded, close to a year ago, that you cancelled or postponed or something at the last minute because a kid was sick. I believe that was the situation. And it was like a real person who acknowledges that life is not all about work, and it's okay to prioritize, you should prioritize the important things in your life and, like, here's a person who's living it and doing it and how can we help other people feel confident that they can do that themselves?
Wes Brown 23:53
I appreciate your graciousness. Because I think when I said that I was probably sent that email to reschedule. I was probably like, you know, oh, crap, Sony's gonna hate me. You know.
Sonya Lutter 24:08
Here we are. Yeah. And
Wes Brown 24:09
here we are. Yeah. No, that's great. Well, I'm really glad you're here because I think you kind of bring it you know, I have like one. Just one perspective and experience. And I think yours is we're at the same place, but yours is just actually it's so different than mine.
Sonya Lutter 24:30
So when we talk about that, because you get to interview people and ask about their lives. What's the cliff note version of your life story? And how did you end up here?
Wes Brown 24:42
It's circuitous. Honestly. So I was, like you I was going into a science field when I first I started undergrad. So I was a I was pre med. And mostly honestly, it was for like lack of any conviction about anything. I I think if you had Only then you would never have thought that I'd work in anything having to do with money or investment management or anything like that. I lasted in as a bio major undergrad, bio major until zoology class, like when they took down this jar from the shelf, and it had this 28 foot long tapeworm in it, and I thought, I, I'm done. So I'm out, I can't be a bio major. And I, you know, I kind of, I kind of migrated my way through I was my mom, my parents were teachers, and my mom was like, Oh, they need to, they need more male teachers, you should just be a teacher. So then I was I was an ED major for a little while until I interacted with a group of seventh grade. You know, boys, and I thought, Okay, I can't do this, because I'd lose my mind. So I moved from there. And I had actually studied music for for the majority of my undergrad. So that's
Sonya Lutter 26:03
super fascinating. quick pause real quick. What? Like instrumental vocal? Yeah.
Wes Brown 26:08
No, so I studied guitar, classical guitar for okay. And I wasn't a classical guitar major, it was just that I was at this small school. They have only had a classical guitar. If I want to study guitar, it was classical guitar. And so that's what I study. Okay, yeah. Yeah, so I did that. And, and then I honestly, I really kind of did things out of order. And this is a, we can come back to this, I'm sure down the road. This is a thing with my own kids, as I'm sure it is, for most people. And I'm like, so intentional to say like, okay, there is really kind of a, a, in order to things that makes the most sets. So I was playing music, and had an opportunity to go overseas and played music. So I left after my junior year of college, and went overseas for a few months, and then came back and didn't jump back right into college. And, and then, you know, Soon thereafter, was like, you know, it's hard to you sort of lose momentum. And so I didn't, it took me a while to get back to finish college. And in the interim, I got married about a house, I had a couple kids, all this sort of stuff, and then finally finished my undergrad, sort of in my, my later 20s. But coming to the financial planning world was I mean, really, as a matter it was, you know, it was a matter of necessity, really. So I was I was 27. My second son had just been born. And I was I had started, I had gone back and started doing personal tax work. So I did tax work for a small firm for several years. And then when my second son was born, I needed health insurance. And so I started looking around, this was summer of oh, so he was born in August of seven. And so I started looking around, like, okay, how can I take this sort of mixture of education and experience that I have and land somewhere, and I always had a proclivity for numbers anyways. And so I just went ahead and got licensed, got my securities license series, whatever they were 766 31 I think whatever it was that I needed to get, and and applied to Morgan Stanley, and I went to work for Morgan Stanley in late oh, seven. It was it I always joke, it's, it's kind of a it's probably a well worn or worn out joke at this point that that's why I don't time markets, because that was, you know, December of oh seven. And so we know what followed after that. But it was interesting, because in hindsight, it was such a formative time. So my son was born in August, had an undetected heart condition, and went into congestive heart failure, the day after Christmas in oh seven. And I had just been hired by Morgan Stanley, like nine days earlier, I think. And I didn't actually start, I think I let them know what was happening with him. And they said, Hey, you can push off your start date, you know, a month or whatever you need. They were really gracious. But it was a we kind of entered into the 2008 2009 recession. I now had a kid at home who had a heart condition and it just was recovering from heart surgery. And it was we were in this really isolated, just hard phase for a couple of years. So that was formative because I think it's we can come back to that how that can be formative experiences like that. But but that kind of helped me kind of straighten out and go like alright, I need insurance. I need to get rid of all my debt. I need to Make sure I just had to button things up. And it was just kind of I think that for me, and I, you know, I hope my kids don't have to go through a similar experience to kind of learn, right, what needs the order they should do things in and the way things need to be kind of put together. But it was for me kind of the wake up call that I needed. So went to Morgan Stanley for a while, my son recovered, by the way, he's now 16, and gigantic, which is great. But went to Morgan Stanley for a little while, and then had an opportunity in well, it really, it was March of Oh, nine, so it was the bottom of the market. And I was like just suffocating in this, you know, beautiful office by the ocean up in New Hampshire, and just hated it hating life. And my brother said, Hey, you should, you should meet this financial planner that, you know, that I know. And I met with him in March of oh nine. And he offered me a job in the first meeting. And it was in Tennessee, no longer in New England. And, and one thing led to another and four months later, we were moving to Tennessee. And so that kind of put me on this path that I'm on now, which was to get my CFP and and then kind of spent several years working for other firms before starting coaching blue in 2019. But it's interesting, because you were talking earlier about speech pathology, and how it relates to getting your CFP or to financial planning, I guess. And it being human connection, I think there's something to that I've kind of reflected on this over the last, you know, 15 years or so. And I think the when when I went to Morgan Stanley in Oh, 80708 There wasn't anything I cared less about than money. I could not I mean, it was really important. Maybe that's not true. So I cared about money, there wasn't anything I cared less about than the markets, right. I was like, in this new environment. I knew so little. And yeah, I was expected to like, tell people, I knew what I was doing. And the markets were just gyrating all over the place and, and yet I had the sick kid at home. And it was like, my, my personal life was challenging enough that like, I just my head wasn't in it. And it and I think part of that was because I didn't understand I didn't even understand at that point, the relationship between those two between the content of my daily work and like, my personal life, and how those two things related to each other. Right? There did come a point where I finally down the road where I realized like, it's never really about the money, right? It's about the relationships, it's about the human connection. It's about kind of what the money allows us to do, and all that sort of stuff. So that came later for me, but you know, as I'm, and that's, I think, why I enjoy it. That's even what music was like, right? So the music was about the connection. Right? So anyways, so that's, that's a kind of a parallel to what you were saying the leap from speech therapy to find your planning is from music to financial planning for me was when I finally understood like, oh, it's actually it's about human connection. It's about how we interact about the meanings.
Sonya Lutter 33:26
There's an entire book about that. It's called the good life.
Wes Brown 33:30
Okay, it's based
Sonya Lutter 33:32
off of a Harvard longitudinal study. They've been doing it for almost 100 years now. And they've been following these people and then their descendants for 100 years, and they asked them at various points in their life. What do you think it will be that determines your success? Or how will you know that you have been successful in your life? And most times people say something related to finances, I'll be wealthy, I'll have a good job. I'm CEO or whatever. The thing is, but it's something financially oriented at various points in life. 20 year olds, teenagers, mid years, or midlife folks. And then as they are following these people throughout their life towards the end of their life, they go back, and they're doing the surveys on a regular basis. And what they come to find out is what people what has given people the greatest happiness throughout their life is the relationships, various income levels, various wealth levels. And really that's the conclusion that relationships are the key to happiness. And one of the things that Gallup does in their research, I love their well being stuff and they have this statistic that a friend of a friend of a friend's happiness He has a greater impact on you being happy than a $10,000 increase in income. Somebody you don't even know. But a friend of a friend of a friend, yeah, was happy. And therefore their happiness rubs off on the friend who rubs off on the friend who ropes off. And that is even more important to your happiness, and a $10,000 increase in income. Isn't that amazing? Like, why do we get so fixated on numbers? It's a good thing, because otherwise you could be out of a job. But yeah, out there.
Wes Brown 35:38
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a good thing. Yeah, that's interesting. That's interesting. I will tell you, you know, we work with clients that are like, from no money, relatively speaking to hundreds of millions of dollars. And now, everything, you're everything that you just I mean, it holds true across the spectrum, I guess is my point. What you were just saying that really the relationships are the things that people get the most satisfaction out of?
Sonya Lutter 36:06
It's not even anecdotal. It's proven with hundreds of years of research, which is pretty amazing.
Wes Brown 36:12
is amazing. rapid fire questions.
Sonya Lutter 36:16
What is your favorite type of house and why? house?
Yes. I love that. I get to catch you off guard. Oh, I
Wes Brown 36:24
have an answer for this. But okay, I have two. Okay. It's two answers. Oh, Allah. You said house. Right. So I'm not thinking like Castle, or anything like that. I love house. Yeah. I
Sonya Lutter 36:36
mean, people live in castles if you wouldn't go.
Wes Brown 36:41
Okay, so as a kid, I always felt like you'd made it if you lived in a colonial like, I grew up in New England, you know, the big four before colonials, like the that's like, you know, and we were in you know, in Southern Maine. So we would drive through these, you know, older villages, and you'd see these big old sea captains homes, you know, that that, to me, always stuck in my mind is like, you know, you've arrived when you live in a colonial those are pretty amazing houses. They are amazing. I will tell you having spent time in Ireland this summer for for a few weeks today, my favorite style of home is I don't know if you call it I don't know if it's Irish architecture. I'm not really sure if that's how you describe it, but like other houses are stone and stucco and slate roofs and Evernote, we said no ugly houses. So I'm a little bit enamored by that homes in Ireland right now.
Sonya Lutter 37:38
It is amazing, the best advice you have ever been given. Okay,
Wes Brown 37:44
this sounds a little cliched, but it's tying it back to that period of time when my son was sick. And when them my work life was awful. It's just a perfect storm. I think it was I think it was just an I don't know how it was said. But it was just essentially the like, This too shall pass sort of advice like this, this isn't like don't despair, because it's going to change it's going to get it's going to be different than it is now. So I think that's been a reminder that I've kind of held on to like in the midst of hard periods of time of just like recognizing like, alright, I can't see where I am in the in whatever process is taking place. But it's not going to stay like this. So it could get worse, but it will probably get better. It has historically for you know, for me anyway, it's gotten better. I know, that's not always the case. So
Sonya Lutter 38:34
yeah, it's not always the case. But I think that reality of it will definitely be different. Give some sort of a relief. Let's not even worry about it. Because it's going to be different soon anyhow.
Wes Brown 38:45
And I think that's when I mean, you know this better than I do, certainly in a in a clinical sense. But isn't that when despair sets in? You know, when you're in the midst of something and you don't think it's ever going to change? So I think so maybe that's a better way to phrase it. It's just like don't lose hope. Yeah,
Sonya Lutter 39:00
I like it. Okay, what is the one book that you absolutely must write before you die? And why?
Wes Brown 39:09
I've never I have to be honest and say I've never contemplated writing a book.
Sonya Lutter 39:14
Oh, my goodness. I've got dozens of them.
Wes Brown 39:19
I know. I know you do. I know. That's great. I really, I've never thought about writing a book. I don't think I have an answer for that.
Sonya Lutter 39:28
Okay, I'm gonna let you do a pass, but I'm gonna ask it again. So you
Wes Brown 39:32
can ask it again. There'll be plenty of opportunity, you can come back to that. Okay.
Sonya Lutter 39:37
What does living authentically mean to you?
Wes Brown 39:42
These are such huge questions
Sonya Lutter 39:48
this is so much fun for me.
Wes Brown 39:52
Golly, I may have so many thoughts right. Because but they all tend to kind of go towards like a Trying not to give you the ones that are like, low hanging fruit, you know about being honest and always telling the truth and doing what you say you do and all that kind of stuff. I don't know that I don't I don't feel like I have a good answer to that. I should have a good answer to that.
Sonya Lutter 40:13
I think you do have a good answer, though. Because it seems to me that you're living at. And? Well,
Wes Brown 40:20
I think it's, I think it's the I think it's sort of embracing the struggle, if you will it to some degree, right. I think it's like, you know, I don't know that this is a good answer. But I have a tendency to sort of, not second guess myself, but try to unnecessarily but try to keep myself in check. Right? Like, do I know as much as I think I know about that, like, am I thinking about this the right way? Are my intentions, whole, you know, like, sincere, like, I think all of those sorts of those sorts of things are things that I try to do. So I think like, and just like, Could I work? And then I think it's always and again, this is a sort of a fundamental mindset for me. I think, if you were to have me rank something on a scale of one to 10, it would never be one, it would never, I'd never be a 10. Right? It would always be there's always going to be worse, or there's probably always room for improvement. So I think embracing that, which is like Could I could I do this a little bit better? Could I have been? Could I have tried a little bit harder? Could I you know, I don't know. I think those are things that and that's the struggle is like, for me, that's the struggle, I guess. And then so I would say living authentically is kind of embracing that. It's like, No, I could do a little bit better than that. Am I being honest with myself about my intentions? Now my like, I think my intentions are wholehearted in the moment. But you know, I want to question that just to make sure that that's true.
Sonya Lutter 41:46
I am I'm smiling. So much insight, because I think that is the definition of being authentic, just the way that you answered that question when you want to say honesty, but you're not saying honesty, because it's too cliche. But yeah, your response was perfectly honest. I don't know if I have a good answer for that, and are demonstrating the definition.
Wes Brown 42:12
That I just tripped over it. That's great. Yeah, that's great. Perfect. I didn't get to I've never asked you that. What does it mean to you? Um,
Sonya Lutter 42:19
it mean, living authentically, for me is kind of what you were saying with the best advice that you've ever gotten is doing what I know is right for me. And imagining what is the worst case scenario and doing so. And then it's probably really not as bad as I think it's going to be. So if I imagine that I might lose a relationship over doing what I know is right for me. Then, what really is the long term harm in that? Because if I can't be myself, then why? Why even try to maintain that relationship? Anyway? Love that. Yeah. Okay, great. Um, you always get to end the podcast with what the book is that you're reading. And you never get to talk about the book that you're reading
Wes Brown 43:15
fiction, nonfiction.
Sonya Lutter 43:19
Love let's do one of the chatbot that I never read fiction books. So I'm intrigued by neither
Wes Brown 43:25
do I ever. But true story. When my son was really young go back to that time period when he was really sick. We held him a lot rocked him. We didn't know he was sick. But I read I probably read two dozen fiction books in that four month window before you realize there's something going on we just because we were just sitting rocking a lot. So I haven't read fiction since then. But I just finished All the Light We Cannot See. I don't know. I can't I can't think of his name Anthony door Dewar door. D. O. E are are really good. That. And I think that's probably a pretty popular book. I mentioned it to someone the other day, and they had heard of it and had read it. And so anyways, that's a fantastic book. So that's on the fiction side. It's kind of set in World War Two. It was really good. And then on the nonfiction side, again, like several in motion. Well, 3.0 We've talked about that one. That one's a good one. I think, you know, I'm like two thirds of the way through and then I put it down. So I gotta go back to it. My team's reading it. So we're kind of we're like spreading
Sonya Lutter 44:37
yourself. Yeah. You told me about the book. And I think I wrote it or read it all in one day.
Wes Brown 44:43
I was gonna say keep saying you're reading
Sonya Lutter 44:45
and I'm like, you're still reading it.
Wes Brown 44:49
You really made me look bad. Yeah, I did. I mentioned it to you. And then you were like, Oh, that was a great book. And I was like, shoot the intro Uh, so yeah, so that one and I think I have I have one more that I just picked up. Oh, Morgan Housel is new book. Oh, yeah. Psychology of money. I haven't. You know, which seems like a natural thing to read. I would imagine you've already read it probably. No,
Sonya Lutter 45:16
I haven't read it yet. It's on the list. Yeah. Yeah. And
Wes Brown 45:20
then, yeah, so that one's on my nightstand. I haven't really, I'm not far into that. Great. Yeah. How about you?
Sonya Lutter 45:30
Okay, the book that I've been reading that I can't stop talking about, but I'm not recommending that because it's gonna twist your mind. So for the listeners out there, if you haven't read it, I'm not saying that you should read it. But it's sapiens. Okay. And I
Wes Brown 45:45
have heard of that. Yeah. Yeah, I
Sonya Lutter 45:46
think it's called a brief Brief History of Humankind or something of this sort. But it's a really fascinating book. Basically, why humans act the way that humans act. It's really fascinating. And then I've been listening to the narcissism epidemic. That's kind of fascinating to is written a few years ago, but it's still probably even more relevant now with this obsession with ourselves. So that combined with sapiens is really got my mind. working pretty good. You're
Wes Brown 46:26
not losing faith in humanity yet, though. Right. Maybe. long silence.
Sonya Lutter 46:34
long pause. Yeah, the diversion to a different topic to a different time.
Wes Brown 46:40
Yeah, I realized I am also reading the coddling of the American mind. by Anthony. Jonathan height, sorry, my Jonathan height. Maybe don't read that with those other two. You're already reading. Yes. Yeah, yeah, it would, but maybe next. Maybe. I'll see. So thank you for doing this. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Good, thanks for having me. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Well, welcome. Thanks, Sonya.